EPISODE 86: Hiring a Copywriting Team for Your Writing Business

Jessi:
Welcome to the copywriter collaborative podcast, where we're digging into how you can build a sustainable writing business. We're your hosts, Jessi...

Marie:
...and Marie. We're the co-founders of North Star Messaging + Strategy. When we started our business in 2010, we had no idea what we were doing. We just knew we wanted to write. Since then, we've learned a lot and we've grown into a successful multi-six-figure copywriting agency with a talented staff of writers and project coordinators. We've served hundreds of clients and we've seen it all. We wish we could have had a resource like this way back then. So we created it for you.

Jessi:
We're here to share our and top tips to help you achieve personal and professional success in the copywriting industry. Every week, you'll get valuable insights from us, members of our team, and special guests. Whether you wanna write better copy, create a stronger copywriting business that can support you financially or both, grab your earbuds.

Marie:
Hello writers! And I'm back, it's Marie here. And I'm excited to chat with Jessi today about something that was honestly, really, really transformational in our business, which is how to add writers to your copywriting team, because it was not always a big group of us the way it is now.

Jessi:
No, and it was transformational as Marie said, but it was also difficult. It was more so than logistically, it was a really big mental hurdle for us to get over, shifting our perspective from a business that was the Jessi + Marie show to a business where we could entrust writing to other writers without feeling like we had to look over everything without feeling like we had to have our hands in everything. And I think that this is probably something that if you are out there at the point in your writing business where you're thinking about hiring a team, you're probably feeling a similar way where you've been in the writing yourself for a long time, you know how you approach projects and the idea of bringing someone else on to help you with maybe actual writing, not, you know, a tech support or a VA support who's doing other aspects of it, but the actual writing, the actual client interactions, the actual deliverables, can be a bit intimidating. Because it's like taking something that you've held as your thing that you're offering to the world and giving it to someone else to offer the world to the world. And you wanna make sure that you bring the right people into that relationship.

Marie:
Yeah, for sure. For us, you know, we reached a point where we had to make a decision about whether we were gonna do this or not. And for us, that point was I think it was actually in like 2019. We had a particular client who had a high volume of content needs and JessI and I just could not handle it all. And so we had a choice to make great, which was either turn down some work or you negotiate with them on some kind of like waiting list, which probably wasn't gonna be an option for them, or bring on more writers to support. And I mean, spoiler alert, we decided to bring on more writers. But it definitely was a process that took us some learning and we gained a lot of wisdom along the way. You know, in fact, we're still learning, we're still refining this. But we also haven't looked back from it. That was the right choice for us. And it really, not only did it change our relationship to our business in a way that made us feel and behave more like CEOs. But it also has actually permanently increased our capacity and our revenue. Because yeah, that was the year that like the revenue went way up and it hasn't dropped since then because we now have the capacity to take on more work.

Jessi:
Absolutely. It also has, of course increased our expenses because we pay our writers. And so that's part of the balance to keep in mind. And Marie's absolutely right, and that this is an ongoing conversation that we're having around how to structure our own team, how to continue to bring in copywriters and how to continue to keep the copywriters that we have on staff in a position where they feel really good about the work that they're doing and about the role that they have within the company. These are not the sorts of things, all of the things we talk about today, are not one and done conversations. Getting started is hard. Making that initial decision of I'm gonna bring a copywriter on or content creator on, and I'm going to start allowing them to take on some of my client load is hard. And once you get over that hump, it's easier from a general high level sense, but there are still details that will change and shift over time. The way our team looks now is not the way our team looked when we first hired it. And I fully anticipate that in another couple of years, even another six months, it may not look the same. And I'm not just talking about the actual people on the team. I'm talking about the way our team is structured. That has changed as well.
So I guess all of that's to say, as we start talking about this, if you're considering bringing writers onto your team, go into it knowing that it is something that can be flexible, that probably will change. And the decisions that you make around bringing team members on now are not like make or break, gonna burn your business down or make your business successful. Like you can be flexible, you can make changes. These are not like ride or die decisions.

Marie:
Yeah. I love that distinction. And yeah, so like don't panic! You really can't mess up. It's just an opportunity for you to learn. So yeah, other things that we have come to believe about hiring writers is you don't have to hire writers to be successful as a writing business owner. This is just one model, in fact, in a few weeks we're going to be hearing from a successful six plus figure copywriter who's running the business solo. Right. So there are ways to do that. So I don't feel like you have to do that in order to grow. Yeah.

Jessi:
I think, you know, it's interesting. I think that's probably the first thing to evaluate, right. Is when you're at that point, like we were with our capacity crunch where you're thinking about bringing a writer on, I think it's important to evaluate the why and what all of the options are around it. Because you know, like you said, we could have negotiated a wait list. We could have raised our prices and all of those things are valid solutions. So if the solution that you choose is to hire a writer, just knowing why that's the path that you're taking is valuable information to have, because it isn't the only path. And there there is no right path. This is the model that we chose and have continued to lean into because, you know, initially we hired one or two writers and since then, we've, I think the largest our team ever was at one time was around 12 people total, eight of whom were writers. So we've expanded and contracted over the years based on our needs, but it's something that we definitely continue to look into as one of those possible pathways.

Marie:
Right. You know, other sort of whys to interrogate is like, are you discovering that you're a bottleneck and delivering copy for your clients? Or you're a bottleneck for being able to say yes to clients like we were. Are you feeling creatively drained? Because if you are and you want to get some of that creative energy back, like for instance, you know, we're writing for our clients and we're also writing fiction on the side and the more Jessi and I find that we write for our clients, the harder it is for us to have that creative energy for our fiction. So that's important for us to be able to carve out some time. Like maybe that's something you're feeling too, so it might be supportive to have another writer to help share the load.
Are you working too many hours compared with what you would like to have? So again, it would feel helpful to share the load. Are you resisting hiring because you're afraid that the quality will drop, or you've never managed before? Those are valid fears, but they're also fears that you can address, right? Those are not unsolvable problems, and they shouldn't preclude you from being able to hire writers. So it's, I think it's just good to know where that's coming from. Is it like a true need or is it a fear based thing or like what's going on?

Jessi:
Yeah, I would say also, like, are you in terms of being a bottleneck is the amount of time you're spending on client work, taking you away from other aspects of your business, leading you into a feast and famine cycle leading you into, oh, I'm focused on 8 million client projects so therefore I can't do sales and marketing for my business. If you find yourself in that cycle constantly, one of the solutions is to bring on a team member to help share the load so that you can step back from all of the client delivery and put a little bit more time and energy into other aspects of your business.

Marie:
By the way, this is a side note, but every time we're saying "share the load," I keep thinking of Samwise Gamgee talking to Frodo, like share the load. But like, seriously, if you were finding that, like it is light carrying the one ring up to Mount Doom and it's exhausting you then like maybe you should get a Samwise in your corner.

Jessi:
Yeah. Actually, you know what? I actually don't think this is a side note. I think this is the perfect segue into our next point about-

Marie:
Oh, yay. Accidental genius. I like when that happens!

Jessi:
Okay. Look, I fully believe that everyone needs their own Samwise Gamgee like, you are, you are my Samwise. I am your Samwise. We know this.

Marie:
Aw. That's like the nicest compliment I've ever gotten.

Jessi:
Like, but like also when you're building your team, you are using that analogy. Like you are building a fellowship, you are building people who are supporting a common cause who hopefully largely get along and see eye to eye on most things and are at least willing to do what's right for the mission of the company. It's important that your team and your company culture are aligned and that your team is able to embody your vision. They're able to keep quality high. And they also believe in that, they're not just doing it because they were told to, they're doing it because they have faith in that vision. They want to see success in the same way that you, as the business owner do.
Now it's obviously gonna be a little different because you own the business. It's your baby, all of that sort of stuff. But having a team that's able to buy into that and like join the fellowship willingly and like be really jazzed about being a part of that journey is gonna help you a lot.

Marie:
Yeah. I love it. And continuing the like unexpected Lord of the Rings analogies, like I said before, you don't have to have management experience. I mean, Frodo did not. Right. But I think what is important is to define the company culture values that you want to embody from the get go, because that will help you make hiring decisions that will help you make leadership decisions. And that will help you really just navigate this process of adjusting your entire business model as you bring people in. And also it's never too late. Like if you already have writers and you're like, I don't like our company culture, like then to talk about it now, like address it now because like it's not gonna get better on its own. It takes intention.

Jessi:
Yeah. I think it's really, really, really, really-

Marie:
Super really.

Jessi:
Extra super really important for you to know your own company culture before you bring a team on, even if you are a team of one, it is the you show, you still have a company culture. It is just kind of come into existence based around things like how you communicate with clients, how you manage sales, how you set aside time to work. Do you work 25 hour weeks and that's enough? Or are you like hitting it hard hustling with 60 hour weeks? I don't advise that but some people are like, yeah, let's do it. And so like that sort of energy you bring to your work is going to get passed along as a, almost an expectation to people on your team. They're going to, they're going to be able to feel that energy that you just naturally bring to the table. And so you need to kind of understand what the already inherent culture of your company is, so that you can talk about it, address it, like, know that it exists so that it's not a surprise. Like, you're not getting like surprise Pikachu face when a team member is reflecting back to you these things that they're experiencing.

Marie:
Yeah. Like as if you're always the person who's like an email comes in from a client and so you immediately respond to it, then a writer that you bring on is gonna feel like they have to immediately respond to clients also, but they also have to immediately respond to you. So it's gonna be like 10:00 PM and they're gonna be responding to you. Now that may be something that you actually really want. It may be something that you're like, no way. Right. But like, that's what we mean. Just be intentional about it. And just be aware that like the tone that you set, like it starts with the leadership and that is you. So yeah. Reality check.

Jessi:
So if you have decided that hiring a writer is a path that you want to go on, and this could mean any level of writer. It could be someone who is a full-time staff writer who is taking over a big chunk of the work, or it could be someone who is a very part-time hourly employee or contractor who is stepping in to just help with a few things, either end of the spectrum. You still need to think about what gaps you're trying to fill in.
Why are you looking to hire the writer often? It's because you've hit a capacity ceiling, which is what happened with myself and Marie, but that may not all be the only reason you may be looking for someone who specializes in a certain area you feel weaker in, for example.
Let's say you writing conversion copy. You could write sales copy all day, but you have a decent number of clients who are also interested in SEO optimized blog posts. And so you wanna bring someone in who already has some expertise so that you don't have to learn it yourself. But you can offer that service to your clients because you've decided that that is part of your service offer ends that you want to include. That's valid too. So just know ahead of time, what gaps you're trying to fill and why, because this will help direct not only the conversations you have with potential writers, but what their job actually looks like once they're on your team.

Marie:
For sure. Another thing is, you know, you don't have to have someone's entire full annual salary sitting in the bank in order to hire them. If you can do some math and figure out when it's financially worth it for you to do it, like for instance, you know, okay, well, if I do this, then if I hire them as this rate and we have this profit margin, and that also frees me to bring in another client, they pay for themselves in two months or whatever. Like, I don't know, I'm pulling numbers out of the air, but like do some math and figure out like, when is it financially worth it for you to do that? And that way you can also assess how much money you want or need to have set aside in the beginning, or if merely the act of hiring someone actually makes your business more profitable. That could be the case too.
I will add a quick caveat that don't forget that you will have to have some amount of training time at the beginning that is non-billable, where you're meeting with them or like showing them the ropes of things. And so that's hours that you're not gonna be able to see a return immediately on, but it's your investment in that team member and it's in your investment in your company.

Jessi:
Yeah, absolutely. And once you're ready once you're like, okay, I know my company culture, I have the money in the bank for training and, you know, to get this position off the ground and it makes sense to do so, this is the path I want to take and you're ready. You're ready to start hiring people. This is where you start to put feelers out. This is where you create a job description. And this is one of the parts that I think can stumble a lot of people, because I think there's a sense that a lot of times if you're in the online business space, the best thing to do is to just lean into your network and see who they know. And that can be really helpful. That can be advantageous. But you kind of have to know what sort of person you're looking for.
There's a big difference for example, between hiring another writer who has their own business and considers themselves a business owner and you are just one of their many clients, versus hiring someone who does not have their own business may have a few freelance gigs on the side, but is really just looking to be an employee. There's nothing wrong with either of those, but there's a different cadence to that sort of relationship. And so, you know, often if you're leaning into your networks, you may get more of the business owners. Whereas if you're putting out job descriptions on, you know, indeed, or other places where you can post actual full job descriptions, you'll get more of the latter. And so neither is wrong, but kind of know what you're looking for so that you can proceed in creating a job description that kind of fits whichever one of those you are trying to attract.

Marie:
Yeah, for sure. And speaking of job descriptions, the template that we have developed and follow came from the book clockwork by Mike Michalowicz. I believe it's referenced in the book or at least linked, but what we like about this model is that the job description itself kind of gives the writer a taste of what it's gonna be like to work with you. You're transparent about their exact duties. You let them know if there's any things that maybe deal breakers for them, right? Like you may say, okay, this is a position in this location, or this is a remote position but it's only part-time or like whatever, you know. Kind of let them know like, oh, you're gonna be working with this type of client. Just be honest essentially. Also list your pay, like list your hourly expectations, like tell people what they're signing up for. And that way there's no ugly surprises.
Like I know that I one time applied for a job and I was kind of in the later interview stages for this job. And finally it felt safe to talk with them about salary. And I came to find out that they were gonna be offering basically only two thirds of what my prior job had given me. And not only that, but it was harder work. And I mean, at that point, I just noped out and it felt like a colosal waste of time for everybody.
And so you don't want that to happen, right? Like you, if you're gonna take, like, it is so time consuming to interview people, or it can be and weed out prospects. So like, just make sure that the time you're actually spending with somebody is a good use of the time for them and for you by like just being upfront with them at the beginning.

Jessi:
Yeah, absolutely. And you know that if you've listened to any of our past episodes, you know, that we really love talking about the idea of voice and brand voice. And we usually talk about it in terms of making sure that you understand the voice of your clients so that you can write for them, but your own brand's voice is really important for this job description. Because when you write the job description in your brand's voice, they're getting a taste of how you communicate as a brand and also who you are. Especially if you're a solo running solo at this point, like your brand voice is probably pretty close to your natural voice, which is probably pretty close to how you naturally communicate, which means it gives them a better sense of what they're signing up for.

Marie:
Yeah, love that tidbit.

Jessi:
I also wanna wanna note that if you go the, the post, you know, job description on like an actual job search website route, just from a logistics standpoint, but also from a detail oriented standpoint, one thing that we found really successful, and this is part of the clockwork template, is putting something in there that allows us to very quickly know if they've read the job description and if they feel like they would be a good fit. In our case, it's usually, you know, insert this sentence in the first sentence of your cover letter or this phrase in the first sentence of your cover letter. And it's not really meant to be a gotcha. It's just meant to, like, when you get like 200 applicants to something that you post, you want a way to really quickly figure out, okay, who is going to be paying attention to the details here, because writing is a very detail oriented skill set, and you have to be very detail oriented in order to reflect brand voice and things like that. And so we include that in our job description towards the end, when we're talking about, you know, company culture, all of that, and how you apply. We say, if you're ready to apply for this job description, include this phrase in the top, in the first sentence of your cover letter, that will let us know that you have read the job description. So you understand what you're asking to sign up for. But also that you feel like you're a good fit and that you are detail oriented.

Marie:
Yeah, for sure. So you can take kind of whatever strategy you want, like whatever the, the skill set or the quality is that you're looking for. See if you can find a way to just make that a part of your evaluation process from the beginning. If you decide to host actual interviews, yes, you are interviewing perspective hires, but they are also interviewing you. And it is very important that you feel like mutual good fits for each other. Because of that said company culture, right? Like, it's it, you know, you're not necessarily, you're not getting married, you're not like signing some kind of big, hairy, legal document or something to bind you to them forever. But if you're worried about things like quality or like all that, like this is part of your due diligence, right. It's finding somebody who's a good fit for you and making sure you're a good fit for them. And if you think that you are not a good fit for them, just be honest with them, you know?
And don't be mean, like be kind, be above board. Don't say anything that's illegal to say, don't discriminate. But like, if for instance, if they're like, yeah, I'm really looking for something that's like 10 hours a week, just let them know. Like, even if you think they're an amazing person say well, I'm really looking for 20 hours. This may not be a good fit for you, but if you think you could give me 20 hours, I'm very interested in continuing the conversation, things like that. Right. So, you know, just be honest, be transparent through the process for sure. And be kind.

Jessi:
Yeah. It's, you know, as we're recording this, there's a lot of conversation around the dynamic between management and employee, owner, and employee and things like that. And that's a whole nother episode that we can go into. But I think the biggest thing to remember here is that we are all humans meeting at the table, and we wanna make sure that we're creating a situation that is mutually beneficial for everyone involved, that treats everyone as humans.
So with that in mind, one of the things that we like to do once we've sort of gotten our top couple of candidates is we sometimes like to do a trial, just a simple, before we make our final decision, a trial writing. I don't like calling it a test, but-

Marie:
Like a project.

Jessi:
Yeah. A project. Thank you. Which is pretty common in the writing world. And I have seen so many companies that make this a part of their hiring process, and they want the writers to do it on spec, just for free do the thing. And then if you don't get the job, they use your thing and you didn't even get paid for your thing. And if you get the job, they use your thing, but you didn't get paid for the thing you're getting paid now that you have a job. So please, if you want them to do a trial project, pay them for that project. These are professionals that you're interviewing for a professional role. This should be baked into the amount of money you have set aside when you decide to hire someone, please compensate them for their labor.

Marie:
Exactly. Yes. So I totally agree. Soapbox! And one easy way to do this is to estimate, honestly, how long do you think it will take someone to do it and just multiply that times whatever hourly rate you're offering, or if you're doing like a salary or a per project, you can kind of figure out like, well, what do you think if you broke that down, what would the hourly rate be? Because everything can kind of be translated back and forth. So that's just an easy rule of thumb to do it. And also I would let them know at the beginning to say, like, you know, Hey John, thanks so much. It was great interviewing you. We wanna move on to the next part of the process. This is a paid project. You will get a hundred dollars upon submission, um, whether we hire you or not.
The other thing I'll say is also do not ghost, like tell them no. Like even in something like, indeed, if there are applicants, there's an easy way to click and just say we've passed on this candidate. And that weighs out, just sitting out there in limbo forever. But also it gets a little harder once you've had those conversations with people and they become like, not just like a name on a resume, but like a person that you've talked to, it can feel like you're breaking their heart a little bit to like, let them know, but like, please let them know because they will appreciate it so much. They won't feel like they have to keep following up with you. And it just shows your quality that you're not flaky, right? Like how would you treat a client? Okay, well, do the same for a candidate.
I really think one of the issues with our society personally is the level, the number of like hierarchies and like power imbalances that become toxic. And so this is a really easy way for you to just say, I respect you. I respect you enough to let you know thatthis is not, we're not moving forward with your application at this time, but it was great meeting you. And I wish you all the best in your future endeavors. Like it's so easy to do that and they will just appreciate it.

Jessi:
Absolutely. And once you whittle it down and finally decide on who is the best fit for you and to add to your team or to be the first new member of your team. One of the things that we started doing more recently in the last couple of years that we didn't do when we first started bringing our team, new team members on is something we actually do with our clients too, our retainer clients, which is a trial period. And this is for the benefit of everyone. It's the awkward dating phase. It's the, we're making sure that we're good fits for each other phase, not just that you are a good fit for our company, but that our company is a good fit for you. And so what we've done in, you can kind of map this onto your business structure and what makes sense for you. It's gonna look different for everyone. But what we do is we typically bring people on as contractors first for three months, get them through their training and also some initial projects to see how they feel about being a part of the team. And then at the three month mark, we revisit everything and say, okay, is this working, do there need to be changes? Does it make sense to stick with the current arrangement? Or is this not a fit, and if so, why? Because we wanna know why, because it could be something, you know, that's just, you know, pertains to that specific situation. Or it could be a broader problem. It could like highlight a culture issue or something that we need to look at more deeply. And then if it is a mutually beneficial fit, then we talk about, okay, what will this relationship look like moving forward using the initial job description as a basis for that conversation.

Marie:
Absolutely. So again, totally optional. This is just one way to do it, but it's kind of a nice, low pressure way if you're a little skittish about bringing on a writer to see like, you know, I could survive a quarter of experimentation here. Another thing that you probably need to just assume is gonna be a thing is some training. Even if you're bringing in a writer who has a decade of experience and like the most beautiful portfolio in the world, and they're perfect in every way. There's gonna be a few things they don't know, right? Like where is this document located or when do I get paid and how, or what are the company values or philosophies, or what's the process for onboarding a new client or whatever. So like, just make sure that you build in time for some training for them around your SOPs, your documentation, your expectations.
And also just remember, like they're also a super smart person and they're gonna have their own ideas and their own insights. And so also like be open, don't just say like, it's my way or the highway, but like be open to their ideas because they, especially if they're kind of in the trenches of doing a lot of the client writing, like they are gonna have innovative ideas for how to streamline things or how to improve processes. So like, you know, that's another way of showing respect is saying like, I wanna support you by making sure you have all the information you need. And I also want to hear from you with your ideas.

Jessi:
Absolutely. I think once they get started too, it's important to continue having that perspective on what they're bringing to the table. It can get... if you happen to be the sort of writer who keeps your writing very close to your chest, has done it your way for a very long time. You may have some ingrained ideas of how your way is the effective way. And that is completely true for you, but it may not be completely true for other people you bring on your team. They may have a way that is effective for them that's a little different, but still the outcome is the same. And so, as you're getting used to having team members, make sure you do focus on those outcomes rather than specific tasks. Like write this in this way, edit this in this way, do it in this order, in this time frame, like that may not actually be helpful. If at the end of the day, the client is still getting a product or a service, a page or whatever you're writing, and it's hitting all of the points that are needed in order to have that be a high quality piece of content that is getting into the client's hands that is meeting all of the goals, all the strategic goals that is, you know, all of the things it needs to be.
You don't wanna end up in a situation where you're micromanaging your team, let them figure out their own process. You may have some high level points on that process. Some things that happen all the time, like for example, our writing clients always go through a brand voice intensive. That is a part of our high level process. But we're not going to dictate for our writers who have done these intensive interviews multiple times with multiple different people. We're not gonna sit there, like watching them in every interview and being like, oh, well, you should have asked that question that way, not this way. Like they know how to get the information they need and we trust them because we've provided some initial training and then just given them the outcome.

Marie:
Absolutely. Yeah, so, I mean, I think if there's like one big takeaway from all this, it's just like a first of all, look at what you need in your business. And second of all, if what you need is building a team to just do that in a way that is ethical, that's like gonna be sustainable for you in the long run, for them in the long run and is honestly gonna make your work more pleasant, and more profitable.
So homework for you today is to ask yourself the why questions. So if you have not yet hired somebody, or you're kind of thinking about it, like, think about what are things that would make it make a good decision to hire. What are things that would not make it a good decision to hire and interrogate where those are coming from, right. Is it coming from how you're feeling? Is it coming from your energy levels? Is it coming from fear? Is it coming from cold, hard data? Like none of these things are wrong. Right. But like just take a look at it and assess what maybe holding you back or what is most exciting about it.

Jessi:
Yeah. And once you have a good sense of the why I wanna challenge you to think about the, what a little bit. Because yes, you're hiring a writer in this hypothetical that this episode is based around, you're hiring another writer onto your team. That said, writing for your clients is not necessarily the only thing that they would do in your business. So think about what you would want to take off of your plate and put onto someone else's in an ideal perfect scenario if you had your dream team member join you. Maybe it's just client work. Maybe it's some internal marketing, maybe it's something that's not writing at all, but maybe the writer that you hire also has some graphic design skills or something like that. Think about the things that you would want in your job description, because they can map onto those whys and you can kind of see if they, if they play together nice.

Marie:
Right. It's that sort of gaps that you wanna fill question. So perfect. Well, I'm happy journaling around that and we hope that this has been supportive for you and just know that, like, again, you don't have to have management experience or a whole year's worth of salary in the bank in order to make this happen. It's really just a matter of when is it right for you and how can you make it a supportive environment for everybody. So, thanks so much for listening.

Marie:
Thanks for joining us for this episode of the Copywriter Collaborative Podcast. Make sure to visit our website, northstarmessaging.com/podcast, where you can subscribe to the show on iTunes, Spotify, and more.

Jessi:
If you found value in this episode, we'd love for you to leave us a review on your favorite podcast app and share it with your friends. Thank you, and happy copywriting.